Former UN Ambassador Nikki Haley

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Just a little more than a week until the Iowa Caucuses and presidential candidates are making their final pitches to Iowa voters. We'll talk with republican Nikki Haley on this edition of Iowa Press.

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For decades, Iowa Press has brought you political leaders and newsmakers from across Iowa and beyond. Celebrating 50 years of broadcast excellence on statewide Iowa PBS, this is the Friday, January 5th edition of Iowa Press. Here is Kay Henderson.

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Henderson: Our guest today is a candidate for the Republican Party's 2024 presidential nomination. She was a member of the South Carolina legislature. In 2010, she was elected Governor of South Carolina. And during the first two years of the Trump administration, she was the United States Ambassador to the United Nations. Ambassador Nikki Haley, welcome to Iowa Press.

Haley: Thank you, it's great to be here.

Henderson: Joining the conversation, Stephen Gruber-Miller of the Des Moines Register and Erin Murphy of the Gazette in Cedar Rapids.

Murphy: Ambassador Haley, you caught a little grief here in Iowa for saying recently in New Hampshire that New Hampshire voters correct Iowa voters in the caucus process. You've explained since that that was some good-natured ribbing among early voting states. But I did want to ask, especially because democrats have changed their nominating calendar, Iowa is no longer first on the democratic side. In fact, your home state of South Carolina is. If you were president, would you also encourage republicans to look at their nominating calendar? Should Iowa still be first on the republican side?

Haley: It's really important because as Governor of an early state we really love that. We respect it. It's important. We feel like we set the tone for where the country is going to go. And I knew, as much as we would rub each other as states, Iowa was always going to be the first caucus, New Hampshire was first-in-the-nation, South Carolina was first in the South, and we protected each other on that. South Carolina doesn't want the democrat primary. We want it to stay the way it was. Biden pushed that, because nobody was lobbying him for that, but I think it's because he knew he couldn't win Iowa. But look, the structure of it is really pretty amazing that Iowa starts it, you change personalities, you go into New Hampshire and they continued on and by the time it gets to South Carolina it gets bigger going into Super Tuesday. There's something very cool about the process. But, the three states always took care of each other. South Carolina never wants to be first. We like being first in the South. Iowa never wants to be second. We know that. New Hampshire likes that. It's something that we've just always respected, and even though we tease each other over it, it really is something we want to keep that way. So no, I would not -- I actually would prefer the democratic caucuses go back to Iowa and it go back to the way it was. And I don't know why the democrats aren't giving them a harder time because not only is that a shift in politics, it's a shift in the economy. All of that coming into Iowa now is going into South Carolina, which is great for them, but it's a slight for Iowa.

Gruber-Miller: So, I've been out at your events the past couple of months and I have talked to people who go there, there are independents and even some democrats who are interested in you, they're considering supporting you or maybe they have even decided to support you. What is your message for kind of expanding your base and bringing some of those people in to support you?

Haley: It's what I've told the Republican Party that they need to do is stop pushing people away and start opening the tent and letting people come in. Our solutions are the right ones for everybody, but you have to be inviting, you have to let them know. And I think the problem that we're seeing in politics now is leaders are deciding who is good and who is bad, who is right and who is wrong. That's not what a leader is supposed to do. A leader is not supposed to judge anyone. A leader is supposed to bring out the best in people and get them to go forward. When they come to the town halls, whatever their question is, whatever the issue is, you listen to them because you learn a lot when you listen and you put your answers out there and then have that dialogue. It's healthy, it's the way it's supposed to be. And then back it up with facts. Republicans have lost the last seven out of eight popular votes for president. That's nothing to be proud of. We should want to win the majority of Americans. But, in order to do that, you don't do that by demonizing a group of people, you don't do that by pushing another group away. You do it by inviting everybody in to understand how you think the country should go forward.

Gruber-Miller: I want to ask kind of the flip side of that question. Your opponent Ron DeSantis has said you aren't able to win over hard-core conservatives or dedicated republicans, there may be Trump supporters who are reluctant to vote for you. How do you convince those people that you're conservative enough?

Haley: I think Ron has gotten desperate. Just because you say something doesn't mean it's true. I was a Tea Party candidate when I ran for Governor. When I got to the UN, we cut a billion dollars right off the top. I have been conservative my entire life. But I don't disrespect people, I don't talk down to people. I bring people in and I'm very clear on hard truths. I call out everybody, republicans and democrats if you've done something wrong, I'm going to praise you whether you've done something right or wrong regardless of party. So, I don't do that. So, it's not about that. I think that shows that you're just picking certain people that you want support from. No, I want support from everybody. That's the only way we're going to bring our country together is when you're talking to conservatives, when you're talking to moderates, when you're talking to independents, when you’re talking to democrats trying to bring them forward. What we've seen over the last few years, republicans have left the Republican Party, democrats have left the Democratic Party, just for those reasons. So, you've got a lot of people who are independents sitting in the middle looking for a home. I want them to come to where we are. I don't want to send them the other way. And that's what the other candidates are doing. Henderson: Quickly, during a CNN town hall this week you said that there were cases for which Trump needs to answer for. What does he need to answer for?

Haley: Well, I think he's got multiple lawsuits. So, certain ones have been political. Certain ones he's going to have to answer to whether it's Georgia, whether it's the January 6th, all those things, and I think those things will play out. But we need to let them play out. I think you're innocent until you're proven guilty. He's going to go through that process. We'll see what happens. And then we'll deal with it afterwards.

Murphy: Ambassador Haley, we saw a tragic school shooting in Central Iowa this week. I know you've said the way, pardon me, to address school shootings is by addressing mental health and school security. Why isn't gun security policy also a part of that overall equation? Why is it those other things but not gun security?

Haley: It would be easy for us to say we're going to take a certain gun away and that would make you feel better today. But we'd have another shooting next week. The hard real truth is mental health is a cancer and everybody keeps putting it aside and we're losing Americans every single day. Let's do the hard work. Let's acknowledge it for what it is. Now you look at teenagers and young adults, we're seeing more stress, anxiety and depression than we've ever seen before. 1 in 3 has it. If we can treat it, they can live a perfectly normal life. But we need to acknowledge that it's real. That's why I think it's important. 80% of mass shooters, they were going through a mental health crisis at the time that it happened. Why don't want try and give them the treatment they need? I'm a concealed weapons permit holder. I don't want to take anyone's constitutional right to protect themselves and protect their families because of something else that is going wrong. Let's fix the something else that is going wrong rather than taking away someone's right to protect themselves.

Murphy: But other countries have mental health concerns too and they don't have near as many school shootings as the U.S. does. Why is it a unique problem here compared to other places?

Haley: Whatever the issue is, you don't take away guns from good people because bad things are happening. You go and you look at the bad things that are happening and you say, let's fix this. A lot of it is let's get the stolen guns off the streets. Right now, law enforcement, they're demoralized by the fact that they'll arrest someone with a stolen gun, they'll put them in jail and then the prosecutors let them right back out the next day. There's no accountability. You have to do multiple things to get this to stop. There's no one quick easy fix. But if you haven't dealt with mental health, if you haven't secured schools, if you’re not doing anything with law and order to get guns off, stolen guns off the streets, are we really doing everything? We're not. Let's do those things first instead of going quick to the thing that is going to take someone's constitutional right away.

Gruber-Miller: I'm going to ask, as you hold up mental health as maybe one of the main or the main solution to this shooting issue, is there a risk of talking about it in a way that stigmatizes that for people? There's not always that link that you're talking about between mass shootings and mental health. So, is there a risk that you're further stigmatizing people who have mental illness?

Haley: Look, we had -- I dealt with a school shooting in South Carolina and to have this teenager that had killed his father and then went and started shooting on a playground. 6-year-old Jacob Hall died. That night when Jacob was still in the hospital I sat with his parents. You don't forget that feeling of them praying that he would be okay and me knowing how he was really doing. I'll never forget that. So, the one thing I want to do is make sure no parents ever go through that. I think what has happened is too many people have buried their head in the sand saying they're not going to talk about mental health because they don't want to hurt someone's feelings or they don't want to say anything wrong. We have to talk about what is happening because the more you talk about it, the more you let people know it's normal, it's okay if that happens. Now, we also had a church shooting. It was all out hate. He went in and shot nine amazing souls because he was a white supremacist and it was hate. There are going to be reasons that are hateful that we'll never understand. But there are also going to be reasons of people who have mental health issues and we owe it to them and the ones that could go after them to say we're going to fix it. And it's not just dealing with mental health. If we secure our airports and our courthouses, why aren't we securing our schools? Shouldn't we make sure there's only one point of entry and no side or back doors? Shouldn't we make sure that all the windows are protected the way we would anything else? Shouldn't we make sure there's a law enforcement officer in front of every school, private and public? Shouldn't we make sure there is a mental health counselor in every single school? Not a guidance counselor, a mental health counselor, that can spot those children that are having trouble. Let's be proactive in the situation rather than just saying, oh they're going to blame it on mental health. It's actually a big deal. It's actually about the health of that individual and whether they can be successful or not.

Gruber-Miller: One of the solutions that some people put forward are red flag laws, which you have said you oppose, but that is a way that people are trying to propose to say if there is somebody who is having a crisis, they're at a particular point where they are a danger to themselves or others, we should not let them have a gun at that time. Why is that not something you support?

Haley: So, we did it differently. What we did was rather than someone saying, this person has a mental health issue, they shouldn't have a gun and it being subjective to someone, instead we said anyone who has been hospitalized for a mental health issue or anyone who has been put into a center, then we get their names and they don't get guns. Do it that way. Don't do it to where someone can stop someone's right, do it when someone has been committed and we know they're a danger to themselves and we know that they have actually been diagnosed and have been said they need to go into treatment. Those are the ones that we go and we put their names in the registry and say okay, they're not going to be able to have a gun. That's how we did it in South Carolina, that's how I think you walk that line of not hurting someone's constitutional right but also using the information that you have that's not related to gun use, but is related to the fact that they were already committed that you take that and use that information.

Henderson: Ambassador, you have said that you as president would deport people who are in the country illegally. How many people would that be? What sort of resources would you have to deploy? How long would that take?

Haley: I think there's a lot more resources being deployed down not doing anything, paying for education, paying for health care, paying for law enforcement. The 8 million that have come in illegally, we have to send them back because you have to look at the fact that every time we allow them to come in, we're incentivizing more to come. But more than that, you've got people standing in line trying to do this the right way and they're cutting the line to do that. We can't allow that to happen. Biden just gave half a million Venezuelans temporary protective status. That's half a million Social Security numbers, that's half a million drivers licenses. But I saw at the UN what happens. They pick up the phone and they call their family member and they say, come on over. You have to stop all the greenlights that are telling people to come and you have to start putting it into the scenario where they know it's dangerous to make this trek and you may not be let in. And if you get here, you're going to be sent back. That's the only way we stop it is to make sure that we hold people accountable and we let it happen. The idea that we've had 8 million and they only sent back 142,000 should scare everybody because it only takes one person to have a 9/11 moment. And we're acting like it's September 10th and we better remember what September 12th felt like.

Murphy: You've also on immigration advocated for the e-verify program. We've seen, pardon me, Statehouse republicans here try to pass that at the state level and it has gotten pushback from the business community here actually because they say there's actually problems with it and they worry about the accuracy of it sometimes. What is your response to those concerns?

Haley: I was Governor when we passed e-verify in our state. It was then said that it was one of the toughest anti-illegal immigration laws in the country and my businesses pushed back on it. But look, we have to make sure that the people who they are hiring are in this country legally. And so, we did it in a system that they could use that was easy, that could be held accountable, that was transparent and we did it in a way that works and we stopped it. You've got to push through it. I am the last person that wants to put any mandates, any regulations on any businesses. This is a national security issue. This is an issue of making sure that the people who are in this country are vetted and legal to be here. And so, I think it's a process you have to put in place now especially more than ever.

Gruber-Miller: You've talked on the campaign trail about shifting trade with China to friendlier countries like Japan and India. But, as you know, China is one of the largest buyers of Iowa farm goods. Realistically, doesn't there need to be some trade between the U.S. and China? How do you see that level going forward?

Haley: I see as president your job is to get in front of anything that you think could go wrong. And the last thing I want is for China to pull the rug out from under Iowans. And so, as president the first thing I'll do is go to our friends. I've dealt with Prime Minister Modi on multiple occasions. I know that they gave themselves a billion-dollar stimulus to become less dependent on China. Japan did the same thing. If we go and we look at Australia and New Zealand and Japan and South Korea and the Philippines and Israel, all of these countries and we say, we have these exports, I don't want to just transfer them, I want them to buy more of it. And let's do that. But don't wait for China to do something wrong. Now, that doesn't mean we just push China away. But you look at everything from a national security perspective. If they pulled out the rug, would Americans be okay? You back and you look at COVID. They told everybody to put on a mask. They were made in China. They told everybody to take a COVID test. You turned it over, it was made in China. You go to your drugstore right now, all those medicines are made in China. Do we really want to risk that? Why not proactively move it to countries who are our friends? When we do that, you're taking that threat away. So just through the national security lens with China is what you want to do is make sure they don't -- and then you tell your businesses everything you know about what they're doing, how they're doing it so that they can make good decisions. But yes, I don't care if you get t-shirts and light bulbs from China any more than I mind if they're buying certain products from us. But let's be smart about it. I wouldn't want Iowans to get wiped out because China went and played a game. And ask Iowa farmers now what it's like to deal with China because China will buy up a bunch of product and then they'll cancel it, watch the price go down and then they'll rebuy it. Is that really an actor we want Iowans to do business with? It's not. So, let's give them somebody who is going to be better for them and a better consumer in the process.

Gruber-Miller: So, as you talk tough on China on the campaign trail you have said that they look at us as an enemy. I'm wondering, the president's bully pulpit matters obviously. As you use very strong rhetoric against them, is there a risk of maybe escalating tensions with them in a way that would be unhelpful or dangerous?

Haley: Not at all. I dealt with them every day at the United Nations. I convinced them to pass the largest set of sanctions against North Korea to stop the ballistic missile testing. I convinced them and Russia to help do an arms embargo on South Sudan, which they had been trying to do for decades. The way I dealt with countries was I told them what we were for and what we were against. I didn't care if they didn't like me. But I wanted them to respect America. And what all of those countries at the UN knew was if I told them something I was telling them the truth, they could take it to the bank. They may not like it, but I told them the truth. The goal is to make sure you have a straight-talking channel that is respectful but lets them know exactly what we expect of them. The problem now is with the Biden administration they're just too reactionary and they're slow about it. It's better to let them know what we expect of them. I talked to China every day when I was at the United Nations. But I called them out when I saw them doing something wrong. I stopped any of their people from getting the heads of agencies at the UN. Any time they were trying to put their Chinese language in a resolution, we had people that pulled it out. You just have to stay on it and you have to stay one step ahead. And if you're one step ahead they can't hurt you.

Henderson: In this country we have republicans who don't want to give another cent to Ukraine, we have democrats who don't want to give another cent to Israel. Is this country becoming isolationist?

Haley: I actually don't blame Americans for questioning Ukraine or questioning Israel. I blame Biden for not telling Americans why this is important. Ukraine you have a pro-American, freedom loving country who was invaded by a thug. Half a million people have died or been wounded because of Putin. He has hit rock bottom. We know that because he has lost 87% of the troops that started the war. He is getting drones from Iran, missiles from North Korea. They have raised the draft age in Russia to 65. And as Congress is saying, we don't know if we want to pay for Ukraine or not, we have to remember that tyrants, dictators and terrorists always tell us what they're going to do. They're amazingly transparent. I saw it every day at the UN. Hamas said they were going to go into Israel. They did. China said they were going to take Hong Kong. We watched it. Russia said they were going to invade Ukraine. It happened. China says Taiwan is next. We better believe them. Russia said after Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics are next. Those are NATO countries and then America is at war. This is about preventing war. And if we were to support Ukraine that's only 3.5% of our defense budget, that's it, 3.5% to prevent war. And we know that if Ukraine wins, China won't invade Taiwan. So, we have to go and just explain that to the American people. And Israel, if we supported Ukraine and Israel, that's only 5% of our defense budget. So, let's look at the fact that Israel is the top of the spear when it comes to defeating terrorism. We have to be smart and strategic in the way we look at all of these. But Biden has to tell Americans why it matters.

Henderson: Domestic issues.

Murphy: You have noted on the, highlighted on the campaign trail some polling that shows potential general election matchups where you perform well against former President Biden and you've even talked about how if I win by some of the margins in these polls, I think one was 17%, that you would come in with a mandate and that would help down ticket republicans as well. If that were to happen, would you use that mandate to advocate for a federal abortion ban?

Haley: I have always said that my job is to, how do we save as many babies as we can and support as many moms as we can? If you use the bully pulpit, you pick and choose your battles. You only use it when you know you can get 60 Senate votes. If we can't win without 60 Senate votes, you don't divide a country over it. You try and figure out what can you get 60 Senate votes on? The only way, and I've said I am in support of a federal law, but you have to be honest and tell people can we get 60 Senate votes? We can if we bring a consensus to ban late-term abortions. If it includes saying we're going to make our adoptions better quality, if we say doctors and nurses who don't believe in abortion don't have to perform them, if we say contraception will be accessible and if we say we're going to make sure that no state law can say to a woman that she is going to jail or getting the death penalty, if we start there. I will not demonize that issue. It is too personal. We will humanize that issue because we're not going to split our country apart over something this personal anymore.

Henderson: Stephen?

Gruber-Miller: So, the Trump era tax cuts are set to expire, large parts of them, in 2025. You have talked about extending some of those. But what else is in your tax plan? Is it as simple as making sure that those parts are permanent? Or is there more than you would do?

Haley: I think we definitely want to make sure that the tax cuts stay as they are, but the small business tax cuts were made temporary, the corporate tax cuts were made permanent. We want the small business tax cuts to be permanent too. Small businesses are the heartbeat of our economy, we have to do that. And I think we have to go further than that. I think if you look at the fact that we're watching the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, we need to go and help the middle class. That's why I want to eliminate the federal gas and diesel tax in our country. I want to cut taxes on the middle class. I want to simplify those brackets. We need to figure out how we can get more money in the hands of Americans. And there's a lot of waste out there and we've got to take it one agency at a time, one program at a time and start getting all of that out because we know it's there, and instead put it back into the hands of the people. That's why I want to take as many federal programs as I can and send them down to the state level. It will reduce the size of the federal government and it will empower people on the ground. If you just look at the fact 70% of federal employees are still working from home three years after COVID. 75% of most of our federal agencies are sitting empty. We're all paying for that. We need to start digging up -- instead of saying how do you bring more money in, what about how do you go and get rid of all the waste and all the reckless spending that we don't need to be spending right now?

Henderson: How do you replace the gas and diesel tax?

Haley: State gas taxes, 75% of it comes from the state. And what happens is the state sends the money to the feds, they get it all twisted, they add strings and they send it back. And it goes to things like sidewalks, it goes to green spaces, it goes to all of these other things. Instead, those resources should stay at the state level. The state should be able to decide what they need to get done. What we've seen through the process now, and I saw this as Governor, is if you want to get a road paved by the time you get the full approval, the cost has gone up three times that much.

Henderson: Speaking of time, we are out of time. Thank you, Ambassador Haley, for joining us on this edition of Iowa Press.

Haley: I appreciate it.

Henderson: You can watch every episode at iowapbs.org. On behalf of everyone at Iowa PBS, thanks for watching.

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Funding for Iowa Press was provided by Friends, the Iowa PBS Foundation.

The Associated General Contractors of Iowa, the public's partner in building Iowa's highway, bridge and municipal utility infrastructure.

Elite Casino Resorts is rooted in Iowa. Elite's 1,600 employees are our company's greatest asset. A family run business, Elite supports volunteerism, encourages promotions from within, and shares profits with our employees.

Across Iowa, hundreds of neighborhood banks strive to serve their communities, provide jobs and help local businesses. Iowa Banks are proud to back the life you build. Learn more at iowabankers.com.

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