Peers, neighbors and relatives all have a part in transition planning - Clint Fischer

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Hi, everyone. I'm Paul Yeager, this is the MToM Show podcast, a production of Iowa PBS and the Market to Market TV show. Today we are going to talk about transitions from being an owner to an operator to a farmhand. Maybe you're the upcoming farmer looking for an opportunity. Maybe you're that new farmer, and you are trying to find someone to help you answer some questions. It's about transitions. Clint Fischer from South Dakota and the CEO of Braintrust Ag is going to talk about his story. And how he formulated this idea. He was in ag retail for a number of times and tried a couple of things that maybe didn't quite work out the way he wanted to. So he went to law school. And we're going to talk about how Braintrust was born. One thing that he has found is partnering. And maybe it's that mentor, mentee maybe it's a peer group. Remember, a peer group isn't necessarily your neighbor. Because you don't want to always tell your neighbor that, hey, I'm thinking of buying that 40. And then your neighbor goes in and buys the 40 ahead of you. We'll talk about some of that transition, but also those discussions of someone who might have reached a certain age. And it's time to do something next and bring in someone with a little different energy and a different scope of things. And how does that look, we'll talk about navigating some of those tough decisions and conversations that need to happen. At some point. We all know there's family dynamics involved. And sometimes the easiest decision is not always the one that is the one that needs to be made. Sometimes easy as hard and hard as easy. Let's talk to Clinton. Now if you have any feedback for me, send me an email at Paul.Yeager@IowaPBS.ORG. I love hearing from you. New episodes come out each and every Tuesday. Now let's get to our discussion. All right, Clint, when you look at the weather map, who has more snow? You are those crazy Iowans? 

[Clint Fischer]  You know, I think for once they do. You know we were on the north end of it. And we got some cold but not near the inches that they got. 

[Yeager] So you had a harder Christmas, though? 

[Fischer] We did. We did. Yes. That was in the last couple of years. Right around Christmas time. It seems we'll get hit with something and delay everybody's travel. And of course, this year that storm that hit down south was impacting this Brookings, South Dakota area pretty significantly, because half the town was down in Frisco, Texas for the national championship game and they weren't able to come back. So it was kind of a ghost town round here for a while.

[Yeager] Did you have rooting interest in that game? Sorry, did you have rooting interest like is SDSU your team or are you a Bison guy? 

[Fischer] I live near Brookings, work here in Brookings and graduated from SDSU many, many years ago. And so quite a significant interest in the team and it's been a great couple of years. Of course, we have an ongoing rivalry with our neighbors to the north in North Dakota State and very, very excited to see SDSU win two back to back national championships.

[Yeager] It kind of sounds the way they were at North Dakota when and they win back to back and many years.

[Fischer] They have their dynasty going so we'll see if we can keep it up down here at Brookings.

[Yeager] Where did you go before you went to SDSU? Where were you living?

[Fischer] So I grew up here in eastern South Dakota on a small farm. Kind of a glorified hobby farm really, dad was an ag banker his whole career and ended up going, so out of high school I went down to University of Sioux Falls down in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, to play football down there and decided after three years to get an ag degree. So I was transferred up to SDSU for ag business, graduated from there. Following that, then I spent 10 years in ag retail, managing various feed fertilizer seed chemical locations here around the area. Also, starting a couple of businesses, some were fairly successful, a handful, significantly flopped, learned a lot more from the flops than from the successful ones. And then in 2019 decided to go to law school ever We work more on the farm succession, transition, side of things estate planning. So, I went to law school in 2019. So I was the old, non-traditional student in class. There were a couple of us, but we're the ones that asked too many questions in class, and everybody wants us to shut out. 

[Yeager] So, I get it. Been there, done that. Alright, Clint, you gave me about four things to follow up on first: what position in football. 

[Fischer] I was tight end and then a little bit of fullback when needed.

[Yeager] And then that was at USF? So now was the coach there at the time, the guy who's now at Alabama. Yes, sir. So you played for DeBoer? 

[Fischer] Yeah, so my freshman year was his first year as head coach. So he's the one who recruited me and we went, I was with the team in 2006, when we won a national championship, and then I had left before they won again  in 2008. And so see, I got to play for DeBoer his first first years of coaching and, and watched him move on ultimately to Alabama. So it's an incredible story for him. And, of course, you know, he's, he's a South Dakota born and raised in Milbank, you know, a success story. So pretty fun to watch. 

[Yeager] And his OC, we like to take claim in Iowa, and he was working at a hog farm. Yeah. When he went up to Sioux Falls when DeBoer called. So yes, we have some interest in there. Alright. The flops teach you more about life? So, as a salesman, what did you like about doing ag retail?

[Fischer] You know, the sales, I was okay, at, more specifically, I was the business manager side, kind of the behind the scenes. Of course, when you're running a one or a two man shop, you wear all the hats, you know, you'll learn all the aspects from, you know, sales, procurement, delivery, and all the business management side of things, too. And, you know, what I, what I enjoyed about that, is I learned quickly, I enjoy working one on one with, with ag operators, you know, various different sizes, specifically, I kind of leaned towards the you the newer beginning kind of younger, in, in the ag world, not necessarily my age, but my experience. And then and then that kind of led me to understanding, you know, what are some of the challenges that are outside the agronomy world, outside the livestock nutrition world outside the markets outside the weather? A lot of it is is kind of the legal aspects, risk management aspects. And then, you know, just treating these fire operations as a business, you know, versus just a lifestyle.

[Yeager] At what point did something click there? Because you also just dropped a couple of hints in that answer. That sounds like what it is you're doing today, at some point, did you have a book to the side? And you're like, you know, I think I eventually could do this. Is that accurate? 

[Fischer] That's fairly accurate. Essentially, I've always been keen towards business, enjoying that, that aspect of things, the numbers side? And I've always also just been genuinely curious. And so I asked a lot of questions. Maybe sometimes, too many

[Yeager] You were that guy in the law class who's asking too many questions, yes, matching up, okay.

[Fischer] But, you know, me trying to understand, you know, coming not from a production ag farm, but just from a kind of a small hobby operation, trying to understand the ins and outs and the dollars and cents of production ag so, so talking with, with farmers taking a step further from just, you know, making a sale, in trying to understand, you know, how can I, how can I how can any young person breaking into ag if they don't have an operation to take over? You know, and so that was kind of what I was trying to get at and understand and if you ask my wife, she'll say, you know, if I could, if I could change my trajectory, you know, just be a farmer today. And which I could, however, she might not be too keen on you know, I'm taking on that risk at this stage of our lives. But so generally, understanding what what are my skills and how can I apply those into ag which you know, which is really been my passion led me to working one on one with some folks you know, prior to law school, just helping them understand some basics of finance and basic so, even on the personal finance side, you know, what is the household budget? Why should that be separate from our, you know, our farm? My operation, how do I treat this thing really as a business? You know, because that's what I was , I was taught and what I was learning through my other experiences. So just kind of advising some, some newer folks in ag, led me to understanding, that's, that's generally the direction that I wanted to go career wise, I didn't know that my last ag retail job was, was managing a small fertilizer plant. And I realized that I just didn't want to sling fertilizer for the rest of my life, and time for a change, which prompted me to go into law school and kind of take that path,

[Yeager] The law school aspect, there's many different areas to get into law. Was there a specific one you had in mind? And is that how you graduated with that same entrance and exit?

[Fischer] Sure. Yes, and no. So generally, there's a couple of ways to look at law school. One is litigation, which is what everybody sees on TV, whether it's civil or criminal, when you're in the courtroom, that never really appealed to me, I was more focused on the business transactional side of things. And so you're right, there's countless areas of law to go into, and you can specialize in many different areas. And also, for me, I preferred the behind the scenes, the drafting of contracts, the boring stuff that doesn't make it on TV and movies, but generally pays the bills. And, and so that I kind of narrowed it down to that right off the bat. And then I recognized, you know, I have an interest in real estate, I have an interest in farm operations. You know, within agricultural law, there's a path to go towards kind of environmental law, things of that nature, which didn't necessarily appeal to me, I wanted to stick more on the kind of the business, the legacy side of things. So then that brings us to wills and trusts and estate planning. You know, and so that was a good combination of being able to apply farm with kind of the transactional side of things. And, you know, the other kind of direction that that many will go is really into tax law, because we all recognize how important and impactful tax is in agriculture and in business in general. And, frankly, as a public accounting minor. at USF, I realized I didn't want to be a CPA, I did a lot of b2b encounter, you know, and so I really focused on the state farm succession path. So in law school, I went to University of South Dakota down to vermillion. And so there's, there's a limited number of electives that you can take. And, of course, I got to experience law school during the COVID time, where we went remote for the first time ever, which was beneficial to my family, a lot less commute. But, you know, it limited a little bit of the electives that we can take. So, I tried to focus, you know, significantly on the, you know, the transaction, all the wills and trusts, you know, that kind of thing. But leaving there with a general knowledge of law, because you need that to pass the bar exam.

[Yeager] At what point was Braintrust born then?

[Fischer] That was really it was while I was studying for the bar exam. I was working one on one with some folks helping put together farm transition plans, and also helping on the kind of the business management consulting advising side of things. What ended up happening was, I was talking with somebody and they said, Hey, there's this big kind of ag crowd on Twitter at the time, it was Twitter. And they said, you should post some of your ideas and stuff on there. And I really took a liking to that form of written content. And so started posting some ideas on there and gained some engagement through that, which led to a lot of people asking some frequent questions. And so questions that I want to help I want to be helpful I want to answer. However, if they don't really rise to the level of let's work one on one, you know, let's really dive into this project specifically. So ultimately, Braintrust Ag came about as an idea for just being able to answer some of those frequently asked questions, and point people into a direction of some resources. Here's some things that I've put together. Here's some things that I've found through other extension services: download these resources, you know, do some of your own homework, but here I'm going to compile these things for you. And that's ultimately kind of what I thought it was going to be, which is a library of resources. And you know, maybe some content. But what I quickly learned a few months into it was that the true value of Ranch-based ag as I see it now and as it's evolving, is really the peer group atmosphere. And so what we're trying to accomplish what what members are, are really quite dedicated to is kind of cutting through the noise that you would see in Facebook groups and on Twitter and on these other really open Settings, where there's a lot of discussion about the weather, there's a lot of discussion about the markets. And it's diving more into how can I be a business manager for my farm? For my ranch? And how do I transition this thing to either the, you know, the younger generation, or to an employee who's coming on? You know, what, can I set up now that in 10 years, I will look back and regret, you know, not doing anything?

[Yeager] Well, I think Clint, what you're saying there is that farming is a business. And you'll have to know your cost of production. Matt Bennett, is our analyst. I've told this story on this podcast before. My very first conversation with Matt was, he goes I think what I bring as an analyst or as an advisor is I asked, what is your cost of production? And if you don't know it, you need to go do your homework, and then come back, and we'll talk? Yeah, so that's always the first part of a business is understanding what your value is. But Clint, how many farmers, they're not usually the ones on Twitter, but there's plenty of them that are on X. That might be good farmers, but they're not very good at business. There's those farmers that exist. So do you target those? Maybe you're good at business? And can I get better? Or are you trying to find that one who, hey, you need to think about this more of a business, and the financial planning that needs to go forward to make your operation for now and for later? beneficial to you and your family?

[Fischer]  Yeah, you know, I think it's, I think it's a combination of both. And what I found that the people who are willing to learn who are open minded, and, and want to, to really improve their, their, their business management skills, are those who are generally a little younger, who are a little smaller operation, they have to be scrappy, right? There's not a lot of cushion for them to, you know, to make, you know, make some, some errors or just just not be really dialed into their numbers. And what they're hungry for is seeing other entrepreneurs and other industries, having kind of this, these peer groups were there, they can commiserate, they can learn from each other, they can bounce ideas back and forth. You know, one of the common things I discussed is this concept of an ache adjacent side hustle for young people. And basically, it's saying, Hey, we're going to bring on, you know, we're going to take what is maybe a cost center to a lot of operations, and let's try to see if we can turn it into a profit center. You know, an example would be, say, for instance, manure hauling. Okay, so I know I have an error on my farm, I need it spread. Now, is this something that I can buy or rent the equipment for, and do it for my own operation, and also for other operations? Now I'm complimenting my farm, but I'm also bringing in some income, I'm justifying this equipment, you know, and there's many, many different examples of that. But it's the kind of thinking that is maybe a little bit not, this is how grandpa did it. This is how dad did it. And so this is how I'm going to do it. And so it's those types of people who are, I guess, kind of willing to look a little bit outside the box. They know they want to farm but they know that farming it 2024 is going to look a lot different than it did in 2004. And 1984. You know, and so maybe it's more least grounded, less less ground ownership. It's just the people who are willing. And so it really is not age, it's not experience, it's just it's the open mindedness and the willingness to share their experiences to the other people I'm trying to target because I don't know many of the answers. And so I'm trying to learn as well from other members within the group. And that's why I really think the value is the peer group setting where you'll every other week we have a zoom call members can come in and just specific topics. You know, once a month we'll bring on an expert they can ask their questions, too. We you know, we just Just yesterday we had a one on grain merchandising in your shop. He's just dynamic. And really, it was helpful to understand the basics, the things that I frankly didn't know, you know, a lot of those pieces. And so it's more targeted to how we are treating this as a business? And how are we treating this as a business as it compares to other industries? To, you know, where are we investing that capital, when we could, you know, there's there's a lot of opportunity cost involved in agriculture, we can invest outside the farm, maybe get a better return, bring it back to the farm, just looking at those different opportunities from other people who have done it, who might not be your next door neighbor. And that's, that's one of the beauties I think, of internet online peer group setting is that, you know, right now, there's 30, plus states kind of represented in Braintrust Ag. And so no longer is it just going to the coffee shop and trying to hold your secrets close because your neighbor, you don't want your neighbor to know what you're doing successfully so that they come in and scoop some land from you. You know, now it's working in Oklahoma, this is working in Iowa, and this is in North Carolina, can we apply some of those principles here, and we're not worried about that competition factor? 

[Yeager] Well, we, we talk about internally here of farmers need to maybe look at that whole, your neighbor isn't necessarily your competition, because they are not in the same boat as you, because there's a good chance that the guy who owns or the corporation that owns that 120 across the road, their leverage pretty high, and they need it to pay off this way. Whereas the neighbor over here, is maybe in a much more similar conversation and might be the one that steals that land from you, if they swoop into the landowner, the surviving landowner, with the monkey bread first to offer as if he's offering. So yes, there's those types of things where you finding that peer groups are more forgiving of mistakes, or we feel more open to sharing in a peer group than we would say, at a neighborhood meeting in our county or in our city.

[Fischer]  I've seen that, that the willingness to share has really been quite enjoyable to see, frankly, because I was a little concerned, you know, with just that, that idea that, you know, I don't want to give away some secret that I've that has worked for me, you know, to to my cortical competition, like you said, but I have seen that those who are those who are willing to share are also the ones who are willing to make the connections, kind of the mentorship relationship, you know, and what I really like about both branches so far, you know, it's relatively new. And I've we've got folks who are a few retired farmers, who have been very successful over the years, and we've got some guys who are in their late teens looking to say, Hey, where are these opportunities that and just to be able to sit back and kind of watch, you know, those who are inquisitive and asking the right types of questions to these, these guys who have been there, done that, you know, and to see them just be willing and open and free with their information to share your kind of with that, that next generation or even two generations removed. You know, it's fun to watch, but it's also, you know, gives me a lot of hope for that, that next generation, because really, you know, my, on a call the other day is somebody said, meno plant your stick, is really trying to help those younger guys find that opportunity. And through doing that, you're also helping that older generation to transition their, their farm business, their operation, they're, you know, their assets down. And, and I, and I didn't mind that, you know, you can you can pigeonhole me in that world, because, you know, I'm just, I'm an advocate of opportunities for the next generation, whether it's whether it's within the family or not, to come in and keep these farms as family farms and ranches, to keep these operations, you know, from, from, from the concept of growth as the only way Either you're growing or you're dying, and I disagree with that, you know, just just that that general mindset. And so I think that there's a lot of young hungry people interested in being able to just to farm and what does that look like in 2024? Well, it's gonna be different than what grandpa and dad, we just know that.

[Yeager] Well, farming can be a very lonely, isolated industry, if you let it. You are out there on that tractor all day doing something. No one's around and if you are not on autos, Beer and not on Twitter, or not on a phone call, you really have no one to bounce off and you're experimenting, you do need to have somebody to go talk to send them a picture, send them a video, send them whatever, back and forth. I think that's a valuable service. And it sounds like you agree, because that's kind of what, as you said, you've enjoyed your pigeonholing. I've been able to connect with those people, right? 

[Fischer] Yeah. And one of the things also that's that's that's evolved through this experience is this concept of retiring. Some people don't like the word retire column, sunsetting, operators, owner operators, who might not have a successor to take over. Now, what I'm finding is, there's a handful of them out there, and I'm hopeful that there's more and more, you know, as this thing evolves, who say, I could either just sell all my equipment at the farm sale and ran out my ground, and just right off into the sunset, or I could just sell everything for parks, to the highest bidder, and go, you know, live down south somewhere. But there are a handful who say, Hey, I've built this legacy, this farming operation, this, this, this, this really is more than just a business to me, you know, because I've put so much effort and time and it's maybe passed down from generations. And now here I sit with no, no kids who are interested in taking over. And, but I want to give some other young person that opportunity. And so I'm actually working with with with one right now in Oklahoma, and I posted a couple things about that, basically, we're looking for this employee to come in, understand the ropes learn learn the aspects, and eventually it's a, it's a employee to ownership opportunity for this person for this young person to come in. You know, it takes a special owner generation owner operator to want to mentor, you know, to have kind of the patience of the five to seven year transition plan. But it's meaningful to them to keep that legacy going and to give somebody else an opportunity, a young person coming in. And so and I've had a few other people send us that reach out about, you know, inquiring, or you know, how can we maybe do that, you know, with our operation, in that that's helpful to me, you know, me being fairly passionate about getting that next generation to come in. And farm, I think that we're going to see more and more of that, or at least I'm hopeful that we see more of that aspect. 

[Yeager] Because, frankly, Clint, you've got, let's just say somebody who's got 10,000 acres, 5000 acres, and they don't want to transition it on a sale. They want to add to that to make it 20 At the end when they cannot keep farming say they're north of the 80. And they're the ones who are buying because they're the ones with the capital to go to the bank to write the check and buy the land, is that detrimental when someone's not willing to parse things out and bring in the next generation for agriculture?

[Fischer] You know, I wouldn't say it's necessarily detrimental, because I don't I don't want to, you know, place them in a negative light. But what I would say is that, they are, I guess, furthering kind of the consolidation, you might say, of some of these operations of some of the land base, because, you know, one of the things that that, you know, it's, it's common knowledge that, that, you know, the cost of land is one of the huge barriers to entry for someone coming in. And so when we see you know, a lot of these REITs a lot of investment groups, you know, outside whether it's foreign or domestic investors, who are you know, picking up some of that land, like what you kind of explained would they would be they would have the resources to come in and tell that seven year old gentleman, you know, we'll go ahead and make an offer on this whole parcel, you know, all 5000 acres because we need it for our our big cash rents. That limits opportunities for the younger person you know, it opens up maybe some rental potential. I'm always try to stress that you can be a farmer by renting ground, you don't have to own ground to be a quote unquote, Farmer. You know, it's if you're in that boat, this word, what kind of my legal background would come into play as we're going to put in a nice lease? We're going to put in some protections in this, you know, in this lease, we might use a right of first refusal or something in this lease or an option to purchase but let's negotiate. You know, let's look at maybe some, some various flex rents. They know some share crop, we can get creative with these places. So we don't necessarily have to own the ground. round in order to foreign, but I would say that it's limiting in the fact that you know that that say that 70 year old example, you know, not necessarily providing what he could be providing three opportunities to three young, young families to come in. And that's not happening. And so it would be limited in that aspect. Yeah.

[Yeager] Well, let's go to a little different scenario here, then say you have that relative who's 75-80? Who is not, there is no known successor, no one, I think you mentioned one of those. There's no one interested. How do you and maybe you're a distant relative? And how do you have that conversation? How do you start that dialogue with someone? Hey, have you thought about what's next? Do you have a plan? Because let's face it, there's people we're going to get extremely defensive real quick, when you try to start medelling, in their business.

[Fischer] That is one of the more common questions that I get asked, and is one of the trickier ones to answer. Because everybody's got the family dynamics, and years and years and years of either great relationships or sour relationships. And so how do we have that conversation? Generally speaking, I like to have that younger generation approach, the older generation, with this kind of framework in mind. It's saying, I have, especially if they have their own operation, and they just don't know what's going to happen with the land base or with the equipment. You know, the older generation just doesn't talk about it. They didn't. Anytime it gets brought up it gets shut down.

[Yeager] What? What, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're saying that maybe an old farmer might not talk and talk about something important, like that is just breaking news, Clint, let's sound the alarm. So let's keep going.  

[Fischer] Once or twice, I've seen it happen. But really, the approach is this. If I'm in that younger generation's shoes, I'm saying, I'm looking out for my family, I'm looking to protect what I've built, whether that's part of the operation or not. And part of that part of being a good steward of my operation, and part of being a good business owner, for my family, is understanding and planning the future. And so, you know, Dad, uncle, whoever it is, I'm looking at planning out, you know, 5, 10, 15,  20 years from my operation right now, you know, and I like to say, you know, say that you talk to me say that you talk to a third party, or that just generally neutralizes things, you know, you know, I was talking with, with the guy who works with this kind of thing, and, and he really encouraged me to see, you know, part of my 5, 10, 20 year plan is, I don't know, you know, what, what place I have in your future plans. And so you just kind of bring it up as I'm looking out for my family, I just, I need to plan this to be a good business person. And you approach it with humility, and humble and with the approach that says, I'm not expecting anything. I'm not anticipating receiving anything. But to be, you know, to have a well thought out plan. I just need to know whether there's anything on the table here or not, or how things are going to look. But really, it's I think it's key to approach it, that I'm not entitled to anything here. You know, and I think that, once you have that attitude, going into it, understanding that I am looking out for my family here, that generally they're a little bit more willing to open up now. Not all the time. It all and I've heard some people say, my dad said, well, you'll find out when I pass away, you know, and if that's the case, then so be it. And then that's when I tell that younger generation, okay, then you can assume that you're getting nothing, which is probably use this and then the rest is a windfall. Yeah, right on that basis, and then the rest would be a windfall.

[Yeager] I think there's too many that end up in that well, maybe not too many that end up in that expectation. I think, if you approach it from I'm not expecting anything, but let's look at the tax ramifications here. You want to go back to Money, uncle, grandpa, grandma, whatever. If you worry about this after you die that's a heck of a tax burden to us. Not only are you not giving me anything, you're doing some not nice things to me from the other side there. This can be I mean, there's trust opportunities. There are legal options and things and we could do a whole contract law episode about trusts and things like that clan. I'm sure we really make You put then you'd bill us for that 30 minutes of time, really make it work. So I guess I'll end it here, Clint. Because yes, anybody can contact you at Braintrust and run things, those common questions to you. But generally speaking, what is something for families, we just finished the holidays, I always kind of do some of these interviews ahead of the holidays. Here's a conversation you can have at Christmas. Okay, we don't have that burden of the holidays. But what's that conversation maybe we should be looking at if we're not directly tied to agriculture, or we are. And we need to have this conversation because we need to have it.

[Fischer] First and foremost, I would just encourage, strongly encourage the older generation to be the ones to initiate it. That conversation goes something like, here's what our plan is, or we don't have a plan. And we are working out putting a plan together. And getting everybody in that room. And it's saying, here's our plan, you may or may not agree with it, you don't have to like it. But ultimately, these are our assets that we're going to pass along in this manner. We have some farm kids, we have some off farm kids, here's our current plan. This could change depending on a nursing home stays. If we buy a house in Arizona, you know, things could change. But as of right now, here's what our plan is. Any questions. As simple as that. Now, that's assuming that there is some type of a plan in place. If there is no plan in place, that's what I really encourage, you know, reaching out to somebody like myself, or, you know, a good trusted estate attorney, you know, some CPAs can give you some good, you know, tax guidance and, and referrals. But whenever I work with, with a farm transition, there's, there's a couple of key things that are just right off the bat, the first thing is taking a complete inventory, what do we own? And how do we own it? You know, how are things legally titled, just because when we dig into that, we find out a lot of hidden, you know, potential pitfalls that could happen with just that one exercise. So that's step number one. Step number two is we sit down separately, the owner generation, we're going to list out what are our goals and objectives? And then the successor generation? What are our goals and objectives? Separate rooms, not together? Right? These are what you see happening in the future. Now you can take these two sheets of goals and objectives, put them together and see what things line up, and what things don't line up. And oftentimes, there's going to be a few that do line up. But there's a lot that don't. Now, those are areas that we need to open up the communication on and then that's when that family meeting needs to happen. And then we can collaborate, you know, depending on the relationship dynamics, but that's that's the approach that goes into it now say, Hey, I don't have a plan, what do you kids think should happen to this stuff. And then you have, you know, husbands and wives and in laws that they all have opinions. And that's when things can get messy, and then in then it becomes a, I don't want to deal with this. It's uncomfortable. There's conflict surrounding this. I'm going to kick this can down the road, until eventually, there's no more road to kick the can down.

[Yeager] You get to the T intersection. And it's a dead end. If you go forward, you're going to have to go one way or the other. Clint, there's a whole lot more we could dive into but this is a great start to have that conversation. I appreciate the time and the insight on what it is that you do. Thank you, Clint.

[Fischer] Appreciate you having me.

[Yeager] Thank you for watching new episodes each and every Tuesday here on the MToM Show podcast, a production of Iowa PBS. If you have feedback for the show or me. You can also send an email to MarkettoMarket@IowaPBS.org. Thank you. Bye bye