Direct Marketing Brings Farmers Closer to Consumers as J.R. Burdick Puts Emphasis on Local Customers

[Paul Yeager] I was scrolling through X a couple of weeks ago, and I came across a mention to Market to Market that was tagging a response by someone who had watched a podcast with Greg Dowd, talking dairy. This farmer in north central Missouri went on a long statement about the podcast, and I thought, well, let's just have a conversation about what your thought is to that response. And that's exactly what we did today. J.R. Burdick from north central Missouri is our guest. And J.R is a guy who's lived in a couple of places trying farming. And he's run into a couple of challenges along the way. And he's now found a point where he is direct to consumer. They've done market research to figure out what customers around them are looking for when it comes to a product, whether it be pork or dairy, and put that to work for his farm. So we'll find out. We're going to have some, you know, free discussions. I'm pretty sure we're going to have another conversation with him. But this is our good start here because I wrote down like 12 things on my list. Didn't get to them all. But we are going to talk about farmers and efficiencies in agriculture. What's that mean? Is that good? Is that bad? Y'all know about the treadmill in agriculture? We've discussed it before. We'll continue to do it today in this podcast again. Tag us if you see an episode or send me an email. Paul.Yeager@iowapbs.org. Now let's get to JR Burdick in our conversation. 

[Yeager] All right. I saw your picture on X, and you're eating a Casey's pizza. So I have to ask, what's your favorite Casey's pizza?

[JR Burdick] Well, I really have started to like that brisket. Oh, yeah. Barbecue brisket pizza. That's pretty good. But, you know, you can't hardly beat him for that. Quick. Just pepperoni, one slice, grab it and go when you're on the way to the store.

[Yeager] What about the breakfast pizza?

[Burdick] Oh, my wife makes a much better breakfast pizza. So it's. It's not anywhere near as good, so it kind, it's spoiled me. I can't really. Yeah, yeah.

[Yeager] Oh, I love it. And now I'm intrigued. I love the breakfast pizza for the sausage. That's my favorite type of sausage. I won't say I'm a snob, but I just know what I like.

[Burdick] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're confident?

[Yeager] There you go. Brisket. Do you have pigs and pigs at the farm there?

[Burdick] Yes I do.

[Yeager] What else do you have?

[Burdick] Dairy cows. Those are the two main livestock that we run, and, We are a small, direct to consumer farm. That's what we do, is we market those so they're pasture raised hogs. They're. We breed with a red wattle boar, an old heritage breed. But my sales are kind of whatever I've picked up. And now I'm kind of breeding into them. And that's. That's a very recent venture for me. I am not a hog guy, so I make all the mistakes in the world and go, well, we're learning and, but we direct market that meat through our customers. And we also direct market our dairy products to customers.

[Yeager] Have you always been on the farm?

[Burdick] Yes. Born and raised on the farm. Not this farm. We moved to this farm in 2018. We had farmed in Kossuth County, Iowa. Actually, we dairy farmed up there, and, we ran into a stray voltage problem in about 2010 and, fought and fought and fought to keep that. But we just could not overcome the difficulties. And, you sometimes the better part of valor is knowing when you're beat and running away and keeping what you got. So that's what we did. And, move down here and, conventional dairy farm for from 2018 until 2022 and then, just made a decision to take control of our own destiny through some things that happened. And we started in May of 2023. We got all our ducks in a row and got everything kind of lined up, and we started direct selling directly to consumers. And, we have we have it has reinvigorated our love for agriculture to directly connect to consumers and really hear what their concerns are. And been challenging but exciting. And we've really enjoyed this. It's been a roller coaster, but we've enjoyed the ups and the downs.

[Yeager] All right. So then is the home place where you grew up in Kossuth County or there in Missouri?

[Burdick] No, actually, I was born and raised in Michigan. Okay. So, and, we moved my wife and I moved to Iowa in, when? Well, she is from Iowa. We met in college, and we farmed with my parents for a number of years just outside of Lansing, Michigan. Okay. And the urban encroachment became a real problem. And, I was 30 years old. Four kids, three kids at home. My wife and I told my wife, I says, we are going to build a farm here for a lot longer. I said, I'm young enough. I want to make a choice. We were actually looking at a farm in Minnesota that fell through, but on our way back from Minnesota, we talked to my grandpa, my wife's grandpa in Franklin County, Iowa, and he was in his late 70s and no kids that wanted to take over the farm, no grandkids. And and I just told him what we were thinking about doing. And he said, well, let me know how it goes. So I didn't really think anything about it. The deal in Minnesota fell through, and I just kept farming. And he called me one day, which was very unusual for him to call me. And he said, what are you going to do? I said, I don't know. And he made me an offer to come and buy his place. And for a kid from Michigan that we used to farm and rocks and trees to get a chance to farm in Iowa, I was like, man, you can't pass that up.

[Yeager] Especially Franklin County.

[Burdick] Especially Franklin County. So we got out there and, in 2002 and started farming and, you know, just doing the young farmer thing, you know, scratching through, got to beginning farm loan to pay for the farm. And, about 2006, my dad called me up and he says, I can't farm here anymore, but I'm too young to retire. Find me a dairy farm in Iowa. I want to be closer to the kids. My sister had moved away, so she and my grandpa and grandma had passed. So he didn't really have any connections there. And he was not on the family farm. And, so we found a farm in Kossuth County. And, through all that with the ethanol thing and everything was going on, I had invested in one of the ethanol plants and, 2007 happened and they went broke, and I went down pretty hard with that. So, so I, I don't have as much love for ethanol as some people do, but having gone through that and, so I started back Dairy Farm and, we got out of paid all our bills and, you know, kept the farm machinery and I kept some rented ground. But I always enjoyed cattle. And, you know, dairy farming in Franklin County is unheard of. That's not something you do there. So, I was able to get back in the dairy farm and things were going pretty good. And then we got hit with that stray voltage, and we just couldn't overcome it. But we we fought the electric company. We won our court case. And the Iowa Supreme Court won on appeal. And, but we had spent so much of our equity at that point in time. You know, you just finally say, you know, we got to cut our losses and leave. But the little town that we were in ended up getting a whole new substation and all new wires throughout the whole town after we won. So, we did improve the community when we left.

[Yeager] And then you find the place in Missouri. Yeah. And knowing that area, I don't think it's the flattest.

[Burdick] No, no, no, it's very reminiscent of where I grew up in, in Michigan. So to me, it's back farming like I was when I was a kid. Except that we do not have rocks. We got everything else, but we don't have rocks. So.

[Yeager] So I'm thinking, shoot, because I was going to volunteer to come pick up rocks for you. I totally was. Well, we got that is the one thing I don't miss.

[Burdick] Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. Yes.

[Yeager] So then you decide. I mean, when you go to Missouri, did you decide, did you think I'm doing it the way I've done it? Or I'm going to try something completely different. Oh, we were hybrid.

[Burdick] Yeah. No, we were going to just keep doing what we'd been doing. I'll just interject in there. My dad and mom moved down here as well. I had gone to town to get a job because of the stuff that was going on on the farm, and so we were just fighting. We were just like, we aren't quitting. And for my dad, who was in his late 60s at that time, he just didn't want to go out defeated. And so we just pooled our resources, got him here. I was actually working over an AGP at a biodiesel plant, so I was driving back and forth quite a bit. And so like I said, we moved down here in 20 2016. Unfortunately, my mom passed away from a very rapid cancer in 2017. So my dad was left here and we still had not won our court case. We didn't have everything 100% done. And, my dad went to the appellate court hearing in the middle of September of 2017, on a Wednesday. And on Saturday, is it a day or two ruptured on his heart. And, so we rushed him. Obviously, he was life flighted. He came out of that without the ability to to continue to farm. He's alive. He's with us today, but very. You know, I hate to say this, but he's kind of a shell of what? He was that big, strong farmer that, you know, nothing takes down. And, we love having him around. We don't let him drive tractor anymore. He's just, you know, but he's here, and he offers advice whether I want it or not. Still. And, but, so at that point in time, my wife and I, I told my wife, I said, we either have to or I can't run the farm from Saint Joe. And they do everything on a daily basis. So we either have to quit or we have to go back to milking cows. And I want to go back to milking cows. So I says, if you hang in there with me, we'll make a go of it. She's like, well, okay. And so we just stayed at it and went up to 20, 22 and just a lot of things that were going on in the dairy industry just really were starting to bother me. I'd been milking cows since 1991, and I was like, I do not like the direction this industry is going. I do not like the fact that we don't have any options. I don't like the new barriers of entry to young people getting into agriculture. They’re being implemented and we just made a decision that we were going to do something different. And, you know, whether we're successful, we feel what we feel like, but whether we'll be financially successful as we want to be is yet to be determined. And we're looking forward to the end of that story as much as anybody else's.

[Yeager] How would you describe, then, the business plan? You say direct to consumer, you you got to find consumers, right? You got to find customers.

[Burdick] Yes.

[Yeager] And you're you're not you're not the most known in town because you didn't grow up and go to high school and your grandparents and your great, great. You're the new guy. Right? 

[Burdick] Right. So we did a lot of market research that was very different. And we learned a lot of things about what the dairy industry and I and I say this as an overall criticism, not as an individual criticism, but as our industry as a whole. When they start to talk about customers, they are talking about Sysco and McDonald's and the industrial institutions. That's who they're supplying. They like to talk about the when the dairy farmer hears customer, they're thinking about the mom or the dad that's going to the grocery store or buying a gallon of milk. That's not what our industry thinks about. And that was very evident through 2020 and all of Covid, where we it wasn't that we didn't have milk, and it wasn't that we didn't have the processing capacity. We didn't have the packaging to go to individuals because we we institutionalized everything. And so, one day we just got out there and I told you we were going to do this. And she was like, all right, we've got to my wife said, we've got to get a marketing plan together and all those things. And for me, when I went to college at Michigan State University, marketing was all about the CBOT. It wasn't about, you know, getting to an individual. And as a Gen-X farmer who's kind of late on technology and, and the adoption of it, I was like getting into social media and trying to figure out how to connect to people, learning about what customers, what my unique niche market was going to be. And, so we did a lot of research. We stood up at my wife went to Walmart one day, just because that was a local place that she could go to easy. And she interviewed about 75 or 80 people and ask them questions about dairy products, what they wanted, and and I was amazed at how different that was than all of the, All of the all the rhetoric that had been given to me.

[Yeager] I was going to say institutional information, but rhetoric works, too.

[Burdick] Yes. And so, I was amazed at how many people were very upset at the fact that they pick up a gallon of milk and it was going to expire in a day or two or something like that. And if you go and you read comments like at Walmart, dot com, other other large grocery stores, that is a very common, common thing. And I thought, how is that possible? We've got this great system. And so then we started to talk to people about health concerns and, and things and people who are lactose intolerant. And we really focused on them as our marketing. So we we tested all of our cows for the A2, A2 gene, which is a we're not going to get in all the science, but it, it, it has proven anecdotally, I can't say this scientifically, but all of my customers, we have people who haven't been able to drink milk for decades, and they can drink our milk and, not give them any stomach issues. We have vegans that have come back to the to food, you know, meat consumption and not because of us, but they find out about us and they can digest our milk because their body has been so destroyed by their previous diet. And so we were really excited to find all this information out. And we took that and we extrapolated that to, oh, there's a lot of people that want to think this way. We found out that's not quite the case. There is, but there is a significant market. So in 2022 we were milking 70 cows. I was doing all the labor myself. My wife was helping us a little bit. But, when you have to start to market all of your milk, you realize coming up with a home for the milk from 70 cows is impossible without a dairy co-op. So we scaled back and, of course, I wasn't selling to the co-op anymore. And, we scaled quite a bit back and started building our herd back up. We tested them all for A2, A2 genetics, and we were strictly a Holstein herd of cattle and very few of them had that genetic marker. So we sold a bunch of them and we bought back jerseys, which I still remember my old college professor, Roger Molan burger. He used to say, the only reason the guy owns jerseys is because he's too proud to own a goat. And, so, so he's got to be rolling in his grave that I did what I did. But, so we were about half jerseys, half-brow or, we got a couple brown Swiss in there, some guernseys, and, we went to a grass based, pasture based diet. And that was a big thing for people. I'm not organic, but I don't use herbicides and pesticides because, again, we're going into a niche market. But that's not me. You know, I'm not against any of those things. I've just got to capitalize on what my market brings to me. And then, of course, we added the hogs, because we had to have a place to go with the milk that we separated to make cream and other products. And, then we spent a lot of time learning about the laws of what we could and couldn't do. And that just made me very aware of some of the archaic rules that are not based in science really any more, but just based on because we've always done it this way. And that's, you know, that's agriculture. We why are you doing it? We've always dealt with this way. Well, is there a new way? I don't know, I'm not going to look because we've always done it this way.

[Yeager] And so and the system is all set up to do it that way. Right. The way that old thinking is, which was J.R., I'm guessing, is kind of one of the things that gets to be a burr in your saddle.

[Burdick] Yeah. Yeah. Well, because, we make it is the institutions have made the focus the commodity and not the producer. And the commodity is over is now overcome the customer. It's just, how do we produce milk and where do we ship it? And and what's the next trade deal? We can get to get a little bit more milk out there and, and that focus on the commodity which we see that all through agriculture has taken the emphasis off the farm. And then therefore we don't have, the farmers are sitting out here going in a matter of speaking, you know, does anybody care about me or just what I make, you know, and, and so there's that disconnect and therefore you kind of get this consolidation and this conformity. And I was just tired of that. And I was like, I want to be innovative. But the system doesn't allow me to be innovative.

[Yeager] You don't sound like a commodity producer. You sound like a product producer. Is that more accurate?

[Burdick] I would say I'm a food producer.

[Yeager] Do you think there are the majority of farmers today? Not in the state of California, Texas, Arizona, where maybe it is food. The way we think of it, the farmer is old neighbors in Iowa or Michigan.

[Burdick] They're commodity producers.

[Yeager] They're commodity producers, aren't they?

[Burdick] Yeah. Yeah. So so it's it's what do I do with this next bushel of corn? Not what's the best use of this next bushel of corn.

[Yeager] Yeah okay. And that's and I get it. I totally get it. So what do you do. Because if I, if I go and watch your videos, J.R., and watch the, the big response you had to one of our interviews, which I appreciate by the way. And I thought it was fantastic. You just got to tag us next time. So I see it. Your friends did the marketing for you. Their tag is so I can see it. But what is going to change those producers in Casteth County or Franklin County or whatever the county is in Iowa, Illinois, Indiana to change because they're pretty good at putting corn in the bin.

[Burdick] Oh, yeah. Yeah. But are we making any money doing it right? You know, and but.

[Yeager] Again, it's what they've always done.

[Burdick] Oh, absolutely. But it's not what they've always done. You go back 40 years ago and how many millions of acres of those were grown in Iowa? And how many, how many hog failed to finish? Farms were dotted the countryside. Iowa is still one of the largest producing milk producing states in the nation. But it used to be spread over, you know, vast, large, the larger numbers of of, farmers. And we've seen that consolidation and we've seen the regionalism of it. It's pretty much just northwest Iowa and a section of northeast Iowa. And that's where the cows used to be all over, one of the one of the premier Ayrshire herds in the world used to be and I think Latimer, Iowa. And you don't think of Latimer, Iowa as a, as a dairy, you know, stronghold. So, I think I think we've had over the last, 40 or 50 years a government policy that has pushed this commodity marketing to to the detriment of the individual farmer. And we have become specialized. One of the things that farmers used to be known for was they could, you know, Paul Harvey's all you know, thank God for a farmer to speech. You know, he could tend to harness, he could deliver a cow, you know, he could go fix his tractor. Well, now, most people don't even know what to do with the farrowing pig. You know, most people don't, you know, don't know how to fix the basic tools around them. And if you do want to fix them, you have to go get, you know, special permission from the manufacturers so you can fix it on your own if you have the software to do it. And we become so specialized that we've kind of lost that. And and I understand people say, you know, that's the past, but we have lost that spirit, that that root of who we were.

[Yeager] We have become efficient. That's the word we hear all the time, as have a for agriculture.

[Burdick] I don't think it's been good for our communities and and what's efficient? You know, if you're the low cost producer of everything, you're going to have to, cut all of your, all of your expenditures to be that low cost producer. So you're going to increase value. So we're going to lose that local feed mill. We're going to lose that local dealership. We're going to lose that, opportunity for a high school kid to come in and work at a farm, you know, that was in the city. But he just was going to buck bales, you know, for the summer or pick rocks, that type of thing. And, and efficiency is a great economic thing, but I think it's a horrible sociological thing. And, and, and it loses your connection and again, it stifles innovation because you have to fit in this box to be efficient. What is efficient? Efficient is defined by something else. But what's more efficient than a father with three sons milking 100 cows? You know, that's well, that's pretty efficient as well.

[Yeager] It is. But let's go to I guess the question I have on this J.R is did efficient come to farming. Because again it's all about the price. When you go back to that consumer at Walmart I'm guessing if you would have asked another if your wife would asked another question I'm sure she did. But price is still the determining factor for so many consumers. They don't care if that was on a truck for a day and a half, or a mile and a half down the road from that store. Is it the cheapest? So we as consumers have done this right, we're to blame for a lot of this.

[Burdick] Oh, absolutely. The people are always the problem. You know, we can complain. We can complain about DC or Des Moines or Jeff City. But we voted them there, you know. And it's not like they got there by just, you know, transport spending transporting themselves there. Actually what we found in our marketing was price was about number three or number four on our as we talked to consumers. The number one thing is convenience always has been. And they want it when they want it. So we take orders on our website is how we do. We have a website where people can go to our store and buy our products. I'm amazed at how many moms are on there at like 11 a.m., 11 p.m., 1:00 am ordering because they finally have some time downtime. They're alone. They can think about, oh yeah. And, we're constantly asking our customers what's a better time? What's more convenient for you? We we deliver, we do drop offs. And, and when we've found that we have to market the convenience and then quality, and then and then cost is, is is tied into value. Do they feel like they'll pay a little bit more if they feel there's value in it? But if they don't think there's any value, then they're just going to go for the cheapest. And you build value by building a relationship.

[Yeager] And let's go to the old days of milk was delivered on the doorstep at a certain time. You put the bottles out and I mean that that is gone because it wasn't efficient to, to use the word for companies. On a grand scale. It was good for you, if you have a driver to do it. But, I mean, you just got done milking your, you know, 20 cows, and now you got to go make the rounds by 6 a.m.. I don't know when you sleep, if that's how it works for you.

[Burdick] Well, my wife and I, our kids are all grown and have left the house. We've got one son who would like to come back to farm, and, we're trying to we're trying to build that so that he can he can do that. And, he planted his first wheat crop this fall and is going to double crop soybeans this summer on, some ground that he rented. So we're getting him back in there. He's 23, 22 years old now. But we we have the convenience, the value when we make those deliveries, you know, elderly people who don't get out and and we're capitalizing on, something that's changed in our culture. How many people do DoorDash, you know, so people are we're we're taking advantage of this new, technology where people are used to getting in there and saying, oh, I'm just going to order McDonald's real quick, and I'm going to have to deliver my house. And I don't care if I have to pay an extra three bucks to the guy or five bucks to the guy for delivery, that's good with me because I didn't have to go out. I could stay in my pajamas, you know? And so we're seeing that as being, we've we've recently started that and we're seeing it start to pick up, and it's never another revenue stream for us. And it's time. But again, we're not going to milk 100 cows and do this. We're not going to be considered efficient, but we're just living a a value added relational product. People know their farmer. They know where their food came from. They don't. They if they want to ask me any questions, were an open book. You can come and look at our farm any time. And, people see real value. 

[Yeager] All right. Let's let's do this for you. Okay. You in the one response video, I saw you and we talk about exports all the time. I mean, we cover trade on the show, because that's where, you know, that's where the conversation is right now. What happens though, competition wise, doing what you're doing, whether direct to consumer dairy and it's pork or whatever it is to your neighbors. What if all your farmer neighbors start doing the exact same thing? How is it that a isn't it going to be a competition between you and your neighbor to those a thousand people that are in your town, or a thousand people in the next town to buy your product? How do you compete then? If everybody starts doing the same thing you're doing?

[Burdick] Well, I'm not too concerned that everybody's going to start doing what I'm doing because it's innovative. It's not part of the herd. But if a lot of folks did start to do it, it would become relational. You were buying from that guy because I knew his grew up, you know, his uncle I knew his wife works with my wife at work. Those types of things are going to be the first drivers of it. You're always going to get those people who are going to try to undercut you. We're not the cheapest by any means, but at the same time, we never lost the I won't say never. We've lost two customers due to price out of several hundred that we have. Our, our the reason we lose a customer is 99% of the time is convenience. Oh, I took on a new job. I'm working a different shift, so I won't make it to that delivery time or this isn't going to work for me anymore. And, if if everybody was to start to do what I did, they would just find that person who's the most convenient for them. And, the competition and the price. You're, you're now trying to capture not just the price of producing the commodity, but also the investment of the equipment to bottle, the bottles, all the jars, whatever you want to the glass bottles, however you you're marketing it. Our instrument, your bottling, the other things that you can or can't make, they all take time, and, you know, it takes it takes a lot of hours. And my wife spends a lot of hours a week just bottling milk. Just just getting packaging ready. So I'm not too afraid that anybody is going to come in and overwhelm us here. And again, it's a unique thing. You can't just go and get this anywhere else. And we really have seen and I've appreciated more local businesses now. And, you're seeing a return to localism. I think I think that's going to be the benefit.

[Yeager] Well, I think the supply chain challenge post-Covid put our emphasis on how far our product has to go. Trade wars, conversations, trade negotiations have heightened. You know, maybe I don't need that product from over there. I can get by with this product from over here is your ideas here on on the view of agriculture. Is that a leader? Could it be a leader in repopulating rural America?

[Burdick] I think absolutely, because it gives it one of the things that the commodity push has done is it has the personalized the farmer from the commodity. And you see people who are farming, you know, several thousand acres and they're, you know, they're 150 miles away from where they live. And people have gotten used to that. But then, you know, old farm, you know, old McDonald's farm over here and old Miller Farm over there, whose you sit there and you go that tractor and planter came in on a semi and it left on a semi, and nobody knows who those people are. And the young people want to have, connection. They want to have purpose. They value friendship over money. You talk to young people now you've got killed children. They're a little older as well. It's all about their friends, you know, and they're looking for connectivity. And a commodity doesn't connect you to a consumer, and it doesn't connect you to the land because you're always just, hey, I mean, another tin can to put in all this corn so I can store it. And, and that's, you know, that's the, that's the race. And young people especially, they want to know that the work they do is valued. And most farmers feel like they're when they're just raising that commodity, they feel like I'm valued. No, you're just another cog in that machine.

[Yeager] I had a farmer conversation a few years ago with a vegetable producer in Ohio, and he called agriculture as we know it, as we've been talking about is a is a treadmill. And we have to figure out a way to step off the treadmill because you raise that commodity, you get to this, you pay off your loan, then you come back and get the next loan and you do it all again, and you don't add any value. Now he's a big vegetable. It's got a lot of employees. There's a lot of labor costs there. Again, not everybody can do what you do, but does the market will us not having export markets. J.R. changed the thinking on this issue quicker because we no longer have an outlet, and the price of corn and soybeans would drop through the floor. Do you think that would be the force that would change agriculture as a whole?

[Burdick] I think that it'll change because, as the price of corn and soybeans continues to drop wheat, those types of things, farmers are going to get back to what we used to do, which is walk that corn. And we've raised feed and we walk, we walk the corn off the farm. We value added to it and we produced food and we've seen a reduction in that in all classes of agriculture, as we've seen the consolidation. And I wonder as we see not just the loss of export markets, but we lose an influx of labor that we haven't had, that generations before, didn't have until the mid 80s. You're going to see a return of value, to the farmer owner. And I think that's one of the things that has impacted the agriculture as great as anything is, we have devalued the labor as we've commoditized and institutionalized these things. We have, we have lost the the idea that that man's labor going out there and farrowing that 100 South hog farm and raising, you know, those 2 or 3000 pigs a year. We've devalued his labor through efficiency. And as we lose those things and young people say, hey, I can get back to farrowing hogs again and I can make a living at it. I'm going to be excited about that. Oliver, all we're waiting for is, is some open, transparent markets here in the United States that allow for a true cash marketplace, value to be found for those. And then I think, I think we're off to the races on, young people coming back.

[Yeager] I have like 52 things written down that I didn't even get to in this conversation, J.R. so would you humor me and have another conversation, another time to try to fix the world's problems?

[Burdick] Well, I will certainly discuss the problems, but I enjoy the solutions, and I think there's a lot of good solutions out there.

[Yeager] I think so, too, J.R., thank you so very much. Appreciate your time.

[Burdick] You're welcome.

[Yeager] New episodes are out each and every Tuesday. Like and subscribe. Share with the friend. Give us a listen. We really appreciate you all. Thank you and we'll see you next time.